This helps me out a lot. I've been debating between Thesis and Headway as a way to get my blog into my site. The comments above have made it easier to choose Headway. Thanks for that.

You're very welcome! Again, for those who love getting under the hood
with CSS and HTML coding, Thesis might be a better fit.
However, for those who know little CSS, or have very little time to
customize blogs, Headway is the best choice!

You're very welcome! Again, for those who love getting under the hood
with CSS and HTML coding, Thesis might be a better fit.
However, for those who know little CSS, or have very little time to
customize blogs, Headway is the best choice!

Well, for the record and speaking as a Thesis developer, Chris Pierson has the typography down cold, and the Headway people don't. This site here, for example, just doesn't look nearly as "nice" as a Thesis site. I could tell right away it wasn't one.

No contest from where I'm sitting.

That does it. I'm fed up with the partisan politics. I'm going to Hybrid.

Smart choice, Daniel!

Damn - I had no idea "Verdana" could look so vastly different between
two themes. I must go get my glasses checked. ;-)

My goodness - did someone say Gates vs. Jobs here? Is there not enough room for everyone to play nice in this vast sandbox? I find in computing, newest doesn't necessarily mean best (i.e., I've yet to take on Word 2007 after being introduced to it by an enthusiast). People use what they feel comfortable with, and will make their own choices.

Donna - "Is there not enough room for everyone to play nice in this vast sandbox?" That was exactly my original point in this post, but as you can see, it turned into something else. ;-)

Jack Nicholson: "Why can't we all just ... get along?"

"You can't handle the truth!" :-D

Fighting on the Internet. Some sort of nerdy ridiculousness.

This is all very interesting. I think i will give them both a try over the next few weeks. Thanks for the insight, all.

Offtopic thought: When people start to reply to other commenters then we have real social interaction.

This does not happen too often where I hang out.

Greg - I've had the same experience. On most blogs, comments are just that - comments. With a threaded social system like DISQUS, we get a bit closer to "real social interaction". Thanks, by the way, for stopping by!

John, I think you did the right thing updating this post. And not because you were "wrong" to begin with, but because your views shifted over time. Your update shows that you are a gentleman with class.

Thanks, Chris. I struggled with what to do, but decided that being open (and right up front) about the shift in my views was best for everyone.

John --

How about you add your disclaimer, close comments for the post, and we all walk away, humbled and wiser.

That's my vote.

-- Daniel

One vote is all I need. Thanks!

John, This post seems like an overreaction to me. Brian is a lawyer and an excellent marketer (and someone I consider a friend.) I'd expect him to take some shots at the new kid, see what kind of stuff he's made of. Besides, stirring up a little controversy is in the marketing playbook, isn't it?

But "war"? Not so much.

I like Headway. Call me a fan even. It has capabilities that none of the other premium themes out there do, Thesis included. At least not yet.

It will be interesting to see what happens next month. I'm guessing everyone will keep on bringing their A games. :)

@chriscree - you'll notice that the post title ends with a question mark. So really, I was asking if there's a war.

Can't new kids take shots too?

Dear Abby - I'm confused...

Chris,

I'm realizing now that I did, in fact, over-react to Brian's original comment that showcased in the post. You'll notice that I wrote "I am admittedly a little sensitive to comments like the one Brian made." I came to this realization only after some good folks pointed out my bias and my "reaction" to Brian's comment.

So here's my problem: I now know that this post was somewhat written in a state of bias and emotion (lesson learned), but I also stand by many of the comments in the post - and the responses to Brian's accusations about Headway.

This post has taken on a life of it's own that I did not intend. So, do I delete this post? Do I put a "bias disclaimer" at the top?

Yours truly,

New-ish kid.

Heh. I'm no counselor.

For my part I have no desire to get in the middle of a pissing contest over which theme's better. Don't see how it adds value to the conversation.

Thanks, Chris.

Wow. Who would have thought number two would be such a threat. It is unfortunate that the Thesis guys are so frightened of a little competition. It actually should make both platforms better for all the users. We're a community of people enjoying the technology. Whay does it have to be us and them. I, too, am a user of both. I love Headway. I love the support I've gotten and the lack of frustration because, as Headway states, I don't need to be a coder to use Headway.

The other platform was frustrating for me as I'm not a coder. And to be honest the support forums were not all that friendly. I felt sometimes like I had invaded a proprietary club in which I did not qualify for membership. Yes, others will disagree, but I did have instances when I would explain my needs only to have them be unanswered. Not redirected, but flat out unanswered. Then as i would see others restate the same question, with including a bit of coding they'd tried, and get an answer. I felt like you had to show that you at least understood a bit of code in order to be qualified to get an answer. Please read this correctly - this was my feeling - not a criticism, just how I felt.

In the immortal words of Rodney King - can't we all just get along? I love you coders. I love that you're creating things to help me be more creative. And, that I can benefit from all of you.

robynski --

I understand the feeling, though personally I haven't run into that at the Thesis forums. (I DO get that CONSTANTLY at the WordPress forums ... but I'm not paying anything there ...)

All this discussion about not having to wrestle with code is making me want to take a look at Headway now.

Uh oh.

WOW... what a little heated debate / bash we seem to have going on over here. I feel like adding my two cents to the mix!

Up until now I have been a HUGE fan of Thesis... Up until now it was one of the easiest and most SEO friendly themes out there... and honestly it still is pretty fantastic!

I have deployed Thesis on my blog as well as 2 other sites that are still live, and helped a few other folks get Thesis customized as well as I could with the knowledge I have in regards to hooks and CSS.

While I am not a "coder" I found myself having to dig into code of sites I liked using firebug to see how the Thesis "Rock Stars" did some of the most amazing customization of the Thesis theme out there.

While that was one way to lean and do it, it was time consuming on my end. However, I must say that the community of Thesis is incredible. The forums are full of top notch people who are always willing to help and answer questions you may have.

Enter Headway: I did a demo with Clay a couple of weeks ago, and honestly I instantly fell in love. Some of the features it has blew my mind... and I am having a blast right now working on my new site I hope to launch in the next couple of weeks.

For me, both themes are great, and really appeal to different people as well as folks with different levels of knowledge when it comes to development, CSS and design. I am NOT a developer, and I kind of gave up on tricking my current site out anymore with Thesis as I found myself frustrated on having to learn what, quite frankly, I do not have time nor don't want to learn at this moment and time in my life! Sure I could sub it out to someone, but that really defeats the point don't you think?

Headway came along at just the right time for me as I am looking for a way to utilize WordPress to build great sites that do not have a "blog" look to them. I have been able to work on my home page with Headway and build a site that when you first look at it you would never know it was #1 a Blog site, and #2 using WordPress as the back end / CMS.

So for me, making the switch to Headway has been a very pleasant move... I am now able to think outside the box more than ever before as far as design is concerned, and I am just scraping the surface of what I will be bale to do with Headway!

Is Headway perfect? No. Is Thesis Perfect? No. But what I like is that both products are working on getting there.

I agree with Mickey's above statement re: the developer getting aggressive. As a developer, why on earth would you get into heated debates like this? Up until now Thesis has had incredible support and great word of mouth from the community including myself. And heck, I would still recommend Thesis to people if it is the right fit for them!

As an owner / developer of a product or service, it never helps you or you business out by trash talking and being negative towards people (especially in public) whom you disagree with. It is indeed, in my opinion, career suicide to act in that fashion.

And yup... that is just my opinion!

Woops... I guess that is more than the 2 cents I mentioned I would give. Maybe it should have been a blog post on my site? Oh well...

Make today an incredible day!

Doc

Doc - thanks for stopping by. I've had the same experience with Headway. Fell in love right from the start!

I was laughing out loud this morning when I realized that I have no idea where my custom CSS file is located. :-)

I think there are some fine lines between defending your product, promoting your product, and bashing the products of others.

I find it very telling when a product developer gets aggressive instead of sitting back and letting the product (and happy consumers) speak for themselves. I agree that it is okay (even necessary) to get passionate about your product and it's fine to promote your product, but isn't it possible to be passionate without resorting to sarcasm and finger-pointing?

Frankly I wish I'd never read the comments on Chris Brogan's blog now. I had no idea that there was anything going on between Thesis and Headway until I read Brian's comments on Chris's blog. I wasn't sure what to make of them, so I came here hoping to get some clarity about the situation, and I'm sad to say that I'm seeing the same kind of interaction.

I have to say that I agree with John when he says we can be more vigorous in our assertions without putting others down. As much as I'd like this to be about the products, it's becoming more about the personalities. Can't we all just get along?

I don't know the depth of the situation and what's actually factual or not. From what I do know though, regardless of whether Brian's comments were right or wrong, they're not going to help Thesis.

If Thesis 2.0 is as good as Brian claims it is, then what's the point of arguing? It will beat Headway by being better than Headway. Brian even says that when it comes out, Headway will be scrambling to catch up, which means that even if they did copy thesis, they'll still lose... If that's the case than what's the point of getting defensive about it in the comments?

Not to be cliche, but actions speak louder than words. These comments beg the question, are you confident? Or are you trying to look confident?

Welcoming the competition and proving you're better goes a lot farther than condemning the competition and saying you're better...

@DavidSpinks

You know David, you're right. Responding to this drivel has been a waste of time.

This is a fake debate. I'm done.

Brian, that's a good idea. It's sooo obvious they are trying you. Pay no mind, it's actually flattering. Each time you get involved in threads such as this one, you give them what they want.

This is starting to sound like kindergarden.

Sorry you think that, Fabi. Any posts or comments elsewhere have always praised Thesis - they were a comparison, not a "My dad's bigger than your dad" thing. Brian made a disparaging comment followed by some more, opinions were exchanged - all good open conversation, no? ;-)

@copyblogger - Sorry we all wasted your time.

Wow...and I thought women had cornered the market on cattiness. ;) (That's a joke...just sayin'...)

This just sounds like a minor version of the Mac vs. PC debate.

So...what's wrong with WP users having choices? Isn't there room for more than one theme to be successful? And can't both themes be developed and improved without nastiness getting thrown into the mix?

I think any doubts about the level of snark in Brian's comments have been removed by this most recent comment but at least he's being transparent. His opinions about Headway are pretty straightforward and unapologetic. Keyword being "opinion"....that's just one person's opinion.

Some people like Thesis, some people like Headway, some people like both. So what's the problem?

April - nothing wrong with choices. Everyone promoting headway has been very respectful of Thesis, because, as I've said, it is a great theme with a great forum.

AprilTara --

I like your comparison to the Mac vs. PC debate. Or, for those who are old enough, the Avis side of the Hertz/Avis rental car ad war: "We're number 2, but we try harder." Or the stupid neighborhood wars that happened when I was a kid, all about the virtues of Fords and Chevys.

I agree with Danny Brown -- ultimately, WE'RE the ones who will benefit, by having better products to chose from. Isn't this what market competition is really about?

-- Daniel

Agreed April. Maybe Brian's initial comment was misconstrued but it wouldn't have taken long to clear that up with a "Hey guys, this is what I meant."

Competition is good - it stops people resting on their laurels and resting on their achievement. No-one's denying Thesis is a great theme, just that at the minute it would appear that Headway has the advantage. Like Brian says, Thesis 2.0 arrives in September, be cool to compare with Headway's plans. :)

John, please. As far as I can tell, the Headway marketing plan has been this:

1. Make a version of Thesis with some bells and whistles that we haven't released yet.
2. Spam keywords using the Thesis brand on Twitter and in blog posts.
3. Spam hashtags using the Thesis brand on Twitter.
4. Highjack the comment sections of popular blogs that use Thesis.

Why not concentrate on creating a popular blog yourself? Then you wouldn't have to do this type of barnacle marketing.

That first comment claiming they stole Thesis makes no sense. How could they know what bells and whistles were going to be released if you haven't released them yet?

If they took the world of premium WP themes and added stuff that wasn't there before, isn't that innovation? Sounds like sour (paranoid) grapes to me.

Plus, it's noteworthy that the Headway principals aren't engaging in this nonsense. I think they're taking the high road in all of this. They're also probably spending time making their product better.

Awesome - so now you're going to bash my blog? Classic! LOL

Re: "Highjacking the comment sections" You mean these comments?

John, I'm not "bashing" your blog. I find your marketing lame and ineffective, and think your time and energy could be spent in other areas.

Danny, thanks for putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say anyone way "bashing" Thesis? No, I didn't.

I love how you guys read so much into so-called implications, and yet freely distort what others actually say.

Look, just because you read a book on Propaganda 101 doesn't mean you're good at it. I'm done with this... have fun with your barnacle marketing plan.

Okay, Brian, my bad. "Bashing" may have been the wrong choice of words. Condescending probably would have been better.

Not sure where being passionate about something is suddenly propaganda - would that be the same for the Thesis love around the web from its users? I was one, after all, and regularly recommended it as the de-facto WordPress theme.

I changed my mind, plain and simple. I like a product; I'm going to recommend it. Kinda like people recommending Thesis, or your free SEO book. It;s not propoganda; it's belief that others will benefit from using it. Hey ho...

Looks like Brian is done...

Marketing of what - my blog? Or Headway?

Brian,

Is it just your nature to come out and bash people with different opinions to yourself? "Why not concentrate on creating a popular blog yourself?" - are you saying John runs a blog that no-one's interested in, or John should develop a theme? Isn't that what designers like Chris do, so bloggers can get on with just writing the content? And I think you'll find John's blog is pretty popular and often referenced by a few influential folk.

Not sure what all the spamming is - here's Twitter's search results for Thesis, #Thesis, Headway, #Headway and Thesis + Headway respectively:

http://search.twitter.com/search?max_id=3151558...

http://search.twitter.com/search?max_id=3150502...

http://search.twitter.com/search?max_id=3151569...

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23headway

http://search.twitter.com/search?max_id=3151168...

I can't see anywhere that people are "spamming" messages or bashing Thesis. If anything, bloggers of all creeds and popularity are offering opinions on why they choose either Thesis or Headway. Of course, if you have different stats, feel free to share.

As for "hijacking" the comments sections of other blogs, when a blogger opens up a question about whether you agree with their post or not, it usually means offering an opinion. That's what I've seen happening (as you have as well, from the various comments you've left yourself). That's the great thing about these "popular blogs" - their owners are (generally) open to healthy discussion.

I would say that bashing and being condescending to "the competition" is more of a "hijacking" than offering an honest opinion, no?

Looking forward to seeing Thesis 2.0 - September promises to be an interesting month.

Guys, you need to thicken your skins a bit. Copyblogger didn't lash out anyone's mother here. He's passionate for sure, but his message is clear: Thesis is better. Thesis forums and code are open to everyone, including Headway and may explain why they have such a great--albeit similar--product. The fact is that I don't think that Copyblogger is accusing anyone of being a liar, a cheat or a gross imitator. He is guilty of asserting his point in a powerful, bias and saracastic way. I, for one, think we need to be more vigorous in our assertions and end the pussy-footing that goes on about most things. But as responders we should focus on the facts and not let emotion cloud our judgement. So who will be the smarter of the two of you first, John? You or Copyblogger?

It is possible to be to be more vigorous in our assertions - without putting down the efforts of another person.

You can deliver a message without resorting to snark. Not sure about you, Joe, but that always puts me off dealing with, or recommending, businesses that resort to what is essentially competitor bashing.

Not knowing all the players in this thing, I will say that I don't find Brian/Copyblogger's comment that out of line (though it was kind of snide) because, frankly, it makes perfect sense for a Thesis-partisan to take a swipe at the emerging competition and remind people that Thesis is (still) the horse to beat.

Headway is being developed as an alternative to Thesis, right? Thesis is thus implicitly the standard against which Headway is and will be judged, right? The people developing Headway are well-acquainted with Thesis and it's code, right?

Ultimately, in situations like this (that is, competitive situations) I think the only thing that matters is the veracity of claims people make - implications are slippery and it's often best to overlook them.

Matt - good point. I've been behind Headway for a couple of months now (testing the beta, providing feedback), so I am admittedly a little sensitive to comments like the one Brian made.

Regardless of what claims and snide remarks are thrown around, the product itself tells the truth. Thanks!

Nope, that's what I read into it as well. The kicker is the "imagine that" end-note. Hardly subtle...

I wouldn't say Brian's comment is slanderous (and when it's in writing, it would be libel, not slander--can you tell I've hanging around with lawyers too much?).

If you parse the words carefully, all he's saying is that Headway's developer has access to the same info about Thesis as everyone else who holds a Thesis license. It's possible to jump to incorrect conclusions from that, of course, but we won't do that.

I'm working with Grant and Clay on Headway: I've helped them on the SEO features of Headway and the marketing of it. Of course, I'm also an affiliate for Headway as well as Thesis. I'm saying this so everyone is clear on what my role is in this and why I'm chiming in.

Brian and I have emailed privately on this, and we're on good terms.

There is no "Thesis vs. Headway war."

However, when you're writing about them, you should put Headway first, like this: Headway and Thesis. ;-)

Dig the picture!

Michael (and all) - I've updated the post: Using "discrediting" instead of "slandering" in the last sentence. Slander is a bit harsh and has a certain legal implication.

Good move, and very transparent of you to mention it in the comments. :-)
That's how we know you "get" social media so well.

Thanks, Michael. ;-)

I think any reasonable person reading Brian's comment would conclude that:

1. Headway is a Thesis imitation
2. Clay has taken code from Thesis

I agree - there is no "Thesis vs. Headway" war - but Brian's comment is a shot.

John, watching everything from town hall meetings to TV talk shows to lines of cars honking at each other, I'd say that generally we are at war, with ourselves. Oh boy, Al Qaeda has won!

I can see why people might think that, but that's not what he said. :-) In
any case, I'm over it.

I consider myself a reasonable person but I don't come to the same conclusions as you, John. Of course there is is comparable code between the two themes--and any reasonable person would expect there to be for Brian admits innovation trumps imitation.

I'm more concerned with Brian's statement that "Thesis will continue to set the standard," which is an optimist perspective of the future. Substitute "will" for "may" and I agree.

Am I the only one who gets Brian's implication?

Or there's the third "I" - "improvement". No-one's doing any bashing about themes and developers apart from Brian (I seem to recall everyone that's reviewed Headway has said Thesis is - and remains - a great theme). It's just not as user-friendly as Headway out-of-the-box.

Clay's made it easy for non-coders to make their theme sing. Instead of coming out and implying all Clay did was take all the code from the (open) Thesis forums, why not just let Thesis and Thesis 2.0 do the talking?